瑪南村民訪談 —— 中英對照
原頁(含照片與排版):https://app.notion.com/p/Manang-Interview-Villiagers-2b9d1d8ad68180b480dffb8cb6f015ca 訪談原語：瑪南語(Manangi)· 瑪南語—英語譯者：Yang Tsomo
受訪者：Chungda Gurung(56)· Namgyal Gurung & Karma Tashi Gurung(60)
- Vikram Lama(牧牛)· Amar Chhetri(Ngawal 旅館業，原警察)· Dolkar Gurung
File: #9.m4a Speaker:
Chungda Gurung 00:10 – 00:20 My name is Chungda Gurung and I am 56 years old. I was born here, and since ancestral times, we have always been here.
我叫 Chungda Gurung，今年 56 歲。我出生在這裡，從祖先那一代開始，我們就一直住在這裡。
00:29 – 00:39 I don't know anything about Grandfather Rimpoche (Melong Tsampa Rinpoche, 1914–1981) because at that time I was small, so I don't know much regarding the Grandfather.
我不了解關於大仁波切（瑪南基地第一任仁波切， 梅隆・藏巴仁波切 ）的事，因為那時我還小，所以我對大仁波切知道的不多。
00:46 – 00:55 Maybe my father talked about Grand Rimpoche, but we were small and didn't take care of anything, so we didn't know anything about Grand Rimpoche.
也許我父親談論過大仁波切，但那時我們還小，不在意這些事，所以我們對大仁波切一無所知。
01:05 – 01:17 As per my thoughts, Grand Rimpoche must have been a great one because he is the father like Lama to all of us. So he must be a great partitioner, but we don't know much because we were very small.
依我所想，大仁波切一定是一位偉大的人物，因為他是我們所有人如同爸爸一樣的喇嘛。所以他一定是一位偉大的修行人，但因為我們當時很小，所以知道的不多。
01:21 – 01:30 Regarding Papa Rimpoche (Mase Karma Drugyu Rinpoche, 1941–2020), he was a great Lama. I have known him since my birth here.
關於Papa仁波切（瑪南基地第二任仁波切， 瑪瑟・噶瑪竹舉仁波切 ），他是一位偉大的喇嘛。我從出生起就認識他了。
01:33 – 01:43 I also studied with him. I studied the Tibetan language as well as Tibetan studies and Buddhist studies with him for a long time.
我也跟隨他學習。我跟他學習藏語、藏學以及佛學很長一段時間。
01:46 – 01:53 So I consider him my Tsawi Lama. From then until now, as well as in the future, I will always consider him my Tsawi Lama.
所以我視他為我的根本上師。從那時到現在，以及未來，我永遠視他為我的根本上師。
01:56 – 02:00 I learned everything from Papa as well as from my sister.
我從 Papa 以及我的姊姊那裡學到了所有東西。
02:06 – 02:09 Whenever we had a problem, we always went to Papa Rimpoche.
每當我們遇到問題，我們總是去找 Papa 仁波切。
02:13 – 02:23 If there was heavy rainfall, we went to the Lama to please stop the rain. And when there was no rain, we also went to Lama Papa to say, "Please, we need rain." 如果下大雨，我們去找喇嘛請求止雨。如果沒有雨，我們也去找 Lama Papa 說：「拜託，我們需要雨水。」
02:27 – 02:35 At that time, he was the greatest Lama here as well as in other places. He was the only one, so if we had any problem, we went there.
在那時，他是這裡以及其他地方最偉大的喇嘛。他是唯一的一位，所以如果有任何問題，我們都去那裡。
02:40 – 02:45 Not only us, people from different villages also came to the Lama here.
不只是我們，其他村莊的人也來這裡找喇嘛。
02:51 – 03:04 Different villagers also said that your people... the Kyung village people are very lucky because you have a very great Lama here. We don't have one.
其他村民也說，你們……Kyung 村的人非常幸運，因為你們這裡有一位非常偉大的喇嘛。我們卻沒有。
03:08 – 03:19 Every person from other villages always tells us that we are lucky; though it is a very small village, we have a great Lama always staying here continuously.
其他村莊的人總是告訴我們很幸運；雖然這是一個很小的村莊，但我們有一位偉大的喇嘛一直長住於此。
03:25 – 03:33 I consider Kyung villagers the luckiest... From before until now, we are the luckiest ones.
我認為 Kyung 村民是最幸運的……從以前到現在，我們都是最幸運的。
03:35 – 03:43 From Grand Rimpoche until now, we have had a great Lama always here; we have no empty Gumba, so we are really lucky.
從大仁波切到現在，我們這裡總是有偉大的喇嘛；我們的寺廟從未空置，所以我們真的很幸運。
03:47 – 03:57 As far as I remember, we always had a Lama. So I consider Kyung the luckiest, and the Kyung villagers are the luckiest people to always have a Lama nearby.
就我記憶所及，我們一直都有喇嘛。所以我認為 Kyung 是最幸運的，Kyung 村民是最幸運的人，因為身邊總是有喇嘛。
04:02 – 04:10 Right now there is a doctor and everything nearby. At that time we had nothing—no doctor, no health post, no hospital.
現在附近有醫生和各種設施。那時候我們什麼都沒有——沒有醫生，沒有衛生所，沒有醫院。
04:16 – 04:25 So whenever we got ill, whenever we had something like demons or spirit problems, then we ran to the Lama and he always helped us.
所以每當我們生病，每當我們遇到像魔鬼或靈體之類的問題，我們就跑去找喇嘛，他總是幫助我們。
04:31 – 04:42 Since our ancestors' time, whenever we had a problem, even a problem like a toothache, we went to the Lama and slept there for prayer as well as for treatment.
從我們祖先的時代開始，每當我們有問題，即使是牙痛，我們也會去喇嘛那裡，睡在那裡祈禱和接受治療。
04:50 – 05:04 Once my mother had a very bad toothache and she couldn't sleep day or night. Then she went to the Gumba and stayed there for two days, and she got well. So my mother considers Rimpoche... Grand Rimpoche the best in her life. She always respects him.
有一次我母親牙痛得很厲害，日夜都無法入睡。後來她去了寺廟，在那裡待了兩天，就痊癒了。所以我母親認為仁波切……大仁波切是她生命中最好的人。她一直很尊敬他。
05:22 – 05:35 If people died, no need to say, we always requested the Lama. But even villagers from different villages would come to the Lama for help whenever someone died in their house.
如果有人過世，不用說，我們總是請求喇嘛。甚至其他村莊的村民，每當家裡有人過世，也會來找喇嘛幫忙。
05:42 – 05:57 Not only us, people from different old villages came there... even though they were very far from our village, they came to Papa for Phowa and Puja in times of disease.
不只是我們，來自不同老村莊的人也會來……即使他們離我們村子很遠，在生病或需要頗瓦法和法會時，也會來找 Papa。
06:07 – 06:17 The greatest happiness is that when the Lamas are near... though there are no people around us, no problem, there is a Lama around us. We are very happy.
最大的快樂就是喇嘛在附近……雖然我們周圍沒什麼人，但沒關係，只要有喇嘛在身邊。我們就很快樂。
06:20 – 06:23 If there is a single Lama, it is okay; we are happy.
只要有一位喇嘛就夠了；我們就很高興。
06:27 – 06:37 If there is a single Lama then... if we get ill or if a person dies in the home, we will run for them and they will come. We are very happy and always feel lucky.
如果有一位喇嘛……當我們生病或家裡有人過世，我們就跑去請他們，他們就會來。我們非常高興，總是感到幸運。
06:47 – 06:50 We are very happy about how many Lamas will come here.
我們對未來將有多少喇嘛來這裡感到非常高興。
06:54 – 07:04 Regarding the new retreat center and the coming of many new Lamas here, we are very happy... happier than before, and we are ready to help.
關於新的閉關中心和許多新喇嘛的到來，我們非常高興……比以前更高興，我們也準備好提供協助。
07:09 – 07:22 Also, still here there are only two Lamas, but we are very happy for them. Whenever we have agricultural products, we go to them to offer whatever we have. If we don't have anything, we have nothing to do.
目前這裡只有兩位喇嘛，但我們為他們感到很高興。每當我們有農產品時，我們就會去供養我們所有的東西。如果沒有，那就沒辦法了。
07:25 – 07:32 We are very happy to welcome the new Lamas and many foreigners who come to study here.
我們非常高興歡迎新喇嘛和許多將要來這裡學習的外國人。
07:44 – 08:00 I will say I am happiest when the Lamas come and many retreat centers are built because our village is very small. We are happy when many retreat centers are built; the village also looks very beautiful, and people are proud of us.
我會說，當喇嘛們到來並且建造許多閉關中心時，我是最快樂的，因為我們的村子很小。當建造了許多閉關中心，村子看起來也非常美麗，人們也會為我們感到驕傲，我們很高興。
08:02 – 08:04 I'm very happy.
我非常快樂。
08:09 – 08:18 The greatest happiness is... when the Lamas are near. Though there are no people around us, no problem, there is a Lama around us. We are very happy.
最大的快樂是……當喇嘛在附近時。雖然我們周圍沒有其他人，沒關係，有喇嘛在身邊。我們就很快樂。
File: #12.m4a Speaker:
Namgyal Gurung & Karma Tashi Gurung 00:23 – 00:34 My name is Namgyal Gurung. We have stayed here for a very long time, from ancestors to ancestors. And I am 64 years old. 我叫 Namgyal Gurung。
我們住在這裡很久了，世世代代都在這裡。我今年 64 歲。
00:46 – 00:58 My name is Karma Tashi Gurung, I am 60 years old. I have stayed here for a long time, from my ancestors. We both are from this same village, Kyung, and our ancestors are both from this same village. Since our ancestors, we have been here.
我叫 Karma Tashi Gurung，今年 60 歲。我從祖先那一代起就住在這裡。我們倆都來自同一個村莊 Kyung，我們的祖先也都來自同一個村莊。自祖先以來，我們就在這裡。
01:14 – 01:24 We have three sons and one daughter. My daughter is married and went to another village. My sons... some are in Kathmandu and some went to foreign countries.
我們有三個兒子和一個女兒。女兒結婚了，嫁到了別的村子。兒子們……有的在加德滿都，有的去了國外。
01:38 – 01:57 For me, Manang is a very beautiful and great place... but in summer it's very beautiful and we are very happy and warm, but in winter there is a little problem with the cold. Winter is quite cold with snow, but no problem because it's our own home. We don't need to go to work. If there is snow, we can stay inside our own home with a fire. This is the only problem; otherwise, Manang is very nice.
對我來說，Manang 是一個非常美麗和棒的地方……夏天非常美麗，我們很快樂溫暖，但冬天有點冷的問題。冬天相當冷且有雪，但沒關係，因為這是我們自己的家。我們不需要去工作。如果有雪，我們可以待在自己家裡烤火。這是唯一的問題，否則 Manang 非常好。
02:11 – 02:27 If we are healthy, then we are happy in Manang. But if we get ill, then there is a little problem. In summer, no problem; there are lots of people and Lamas nearby. But in winter, there is no Lama. If we get ill in winter, there is no Lama, and also there are no good doctors nearby and no people. And on the road, the road may also be blocked. So we have a problem in winter. This is the only problem; otherwise, Manang is very nice.
如果我們健康，在 Manang 就很快樂。但如果生病了，就有點問題。夏天沒問題，附近有很多人和喇嘛。但冬天沒有喇嘛。如果冬天生病，沒有喇嘛，附近也沒有好醫生和人。而且路上可能受阻。所以冬天我們有困難。這是唯一的問題，否則 Manang 非常好。
02:37 – 02:38 Only winter is a problem.
只有冬天是個問題。
02:44 – 02:46 In summer, Manang is very beautiful.
夏天 Manang 非常美麗。
02:51 – 02:53 If we do work, then it's good.
如果我們工作，那就很好。
02:58 – 03:17 It's quite enough for our stay. Manang is very nice because we have our foods in our own home, and we can grow vegetables and cereals in our own field. So we do not need to buy many things. And we can wear warm clothes. We don't need to pay rent, and everything is cheap and nice. If we stay in Kathmandu, then we have to pay rent, and also we need to buy everything from morning to evening.
這對我們的生活來說已經足夠了。Manang 很好，因為我們家裡有食物，我們可以在自己的田裡種蔬菜和穀物。所以我們不需要買很多東西。我們可以穿暖和的衣服。我們不需要付房租，一切都很便宜且美好。如果住在加德滿都，我們必須付房租，而且從早到晚什麼都要買。
03:32 – 03:35 If we don't have money, it's quite difficult in Kathmandu.
如果沒有錢，在加德滿都生活相當困難。
03:39 – 03:59 In Manang, there is no problem because wheat, buckwheat, and potatoes are all grown in our own gardens. So we don't need to buy. The only things we need to buy are what we don't have, like sugar and rice; otherwise, many things we don't need to buy because we find them in our field or garden. Also, butter comes from our cow. It is used for... we don't need to buy; we can have tea with this butter which comes from our own cow. It's quite enough for our stay.
在 Manang 沒有問題，因為小麥、蕎麥和馬鈴薯都在我們自己的園子裡種。所以我們不需要買。唯一需要買的是我們沒有的東西，像糖和米；除此之外，許多東西我們不需要買，因為在田裡或園子裡就能找到。而且奶油來自我們的牛。這可以用來……我們不需要買，我們可以用自家牛產的奶油喝茶。這對我們的生活來說已經足夠了。
04:12 – 04:29 Fields are much better these days compared to old times. Much better than the old stage—double or triple times better. Right now, from the field, we get 8-9 sacks of wheat and potatoes... whatever we grow, we get 8-9 sacks, and also it is big.
現在的農田比過去好多了。比舊時期好得多——好兩倍或三倍。現在從田裡，我們可以收成 8-9 袋小麥和馬鈴薯……無論種什麼，我們都能收成 8-9 袋，而且個頭很大。
04:36 – 04:47 In old times, wheat was also thin and skinny and very bad. Right now the wheat comes out very good and thick, not like before when it was very skinny.
過去，小麥又瘦又細，非常差。現在長出來的小麥非常好且飽滿，不像以前那樣乾癟。
04:54 – 04:58 It was very small and very skinny... it could go inside a needle's eye.
以前非常小且乾癟……細到可以穿過針眼。
05:07 – 05:22 For me, it's because many Lamas came here and performed a Rabne; because of that, our fields are very improved. Because of the Lamas' blessings, fields and everything grow very well. Because of that, right now, growth is much better; products are much better compared to ancient times—right now it is double or three times better.
對我來說，這是因為許多喇嘛來到這裡舉行了開光加持；因此，我們的農田得到了很大改善。因為喇嘛的祝福，田地和萬物都生長得很好。正因如此，現在生長狀況好多了；產品比以前好得多——現在是兩倍或三倍好。
05:37 – 05:52 Regarding Grand Rimpoche, I don't know much because at that time we were small, and Rimpoche did not talk much with the children. So I don't know much; we only went to Rimpoche to take a blessing.
關於大仁波切，我知道的不多，因為那時我們還小，仁波切不太跟孩子們說話。所以我知道的不多；我們只是去仁波切那裡接受加持。
05:57 – 06:07 As far as I recall... I saw Rimpoche with long, curled hair, and he looked great. I don't know much, but I only saw greatness.
就我記憶所及……我看見仁波切留著長捲髮，他看起來很棒。我知道的不多，但我只看到了他的偉大。
File: #3370.m4a Speaker:
Namgyal Gurung & Karma Tashi Gurung (Continuation)
Continuation （ 續 ）
00:20 – 00:36 Regarding Rimpoche, we don't know much because at that time we were not here, and also during his funeral time, I was not here. They said that there was a funeral in the Gumba place, maybe in the Kilkhor (Mandala) place.
關於仁波切，我們知道的不多，因為那時我們不在這裡，他葬禮的時候我也不在。他們說葬禮是在寺廟那邊舉行的，可能是在壇城（Kilkhor）那裡。
00:46 – 00:50 We remember very little, and we don't know much.
我們記得的很少，知道的不多。
00:59 – 01:09 At that time... I was coming from Kathmandu, and the funeral was already finished, so I don't remember. She also said I was very small and don't remember much.
那時候……我剛從加德滿都回來，葬禮已經結束了，所以我不記得了。她也說我那時很小，記不太清楚。
01:16 – 01:23 When I was coming from Kathmandu, Rimpoche had already expired and the funeral was finished, so I didn't see anything.
當我從加德滿都回來時，仁波切已經圓寂，葬禮也結束了，所以我什麼都沒看到。
01:31 – 01:52 Regarding Papa Rimpoche, we know everything because we almost stayed together for so long. So we always talked together; sometimes he joked with us, sometimes we joked with him. We always stayed together. And Papa Rimpoche was always talking with us.
關於 Papa 仁波切，我們什麼都知道，因為我們幾乎在一起生活了很久。我們總是聊天；有時他跟我們開玩笑，有時我們跟他說笑。我們總是在一起。Papa 仁波切總是跟我們說話。
01:58 – 02:07 Papa always talked in Tibetan and we talked in the Manangi language, so we could have a good conversation.
Papa 總是說藏語，我們說 Manangi 語，所以我們可以很好地溝通。
02:13 – 02:21 Though we talk in Manangi, he understood everything, and when he talked in Tibetan, we understood everything, so we always had a good conversation with each other.
雖然我們說 Manangi 語，但他都聽得懂；他說藏語時，我們也都聽得懂，所以我們總是可以很好地交談。
02:34 – 02:51 Papa Rimpoche was very light-hearted because whenever we had a problem, whenever we went to him—even in the deep night or in the middle of the night—he never said no. He always woke up and went with us.
Papa 仁波切非常隨和，因為每當我們有問題，每當我們去找他——即使在深夜或半夜——他從不拒絕。他總是醒來跟我們走。
02:55 – 02:59 Whenever we had a problem, he never said no to anyone. Always yes.
每當我們有困難，他從不對任何人說不。總是說好。
03:02 – 03:13 Though he was sleeping, he just woke up and went with us. Even in deep sleep, if we went to call him, he would wake up and come to us, do every Puja, and then go back.
即使他在睡覺，他也會醒來跟我們走。即使在熟睡中，如果我們去叫他，他就會醒來來到我們這裡，做完所有法會，然後再回去。
03:22 – 03:29 Whenever we had a problem, even if we were ill, we always called Papa Rimpoche home to do the Puja.
每當我們有問題，即使生病了，我們總是請 Papa 仁波切到家裡做法會。
03:36 – 03:52 Whatever the problem, we always went to Papa Rimpoche—like to check on the dead, or for astrology problems, as well as for lungta, or if children got ill, or we got ill, or even the animals got ill, they went to Papa.
無論有什麼問題，我們總是去找 Papa 仁波切——比如查看亡者狀況、占星問題、掛風馬旗，或是孩子生病、我們生病，甚至牲畜生病，大家都去找 Papa。
03:57 – 04:05 At that time there was no Lama nearby, so the Lama was the only one we could go to and share our problems.
那時候附近沒有其他喇嘛，所以他是我們唯一可以去傾訴問題的喇嘛。
04:14 – 04:26 Not like other Lamas—some Lamas, when we asked them to come at night, said, "We will come tomorrow, not now," because it was quite dark. But Papa Rimpoche was not like that. Whenever we asked, he was always ready to come; he couldn't say no to us at any time.
不像其他喇嘛——有些喇嘛當我們晚上去請時，會說：「我們明天再來，不是現在」，因為天太黑了。但 Papa 仁波切不是那樣。每當我們請求，他總是準備好前來；任何時候他都不會拒絕我們。
04:36 – 04:47 He did any Puja for people who were ill or in pain; even giving medicine as well as doing Puja for the one who got ill.
他為生病或痛苦的人做任何法會；甚至給藥以及為病人做法事。
05:07 – 05:13 Nyungne is... here we do the Puja like Nyungne every Dawa Shiva [Saka Dawa?]. It started a very long time ago, and we don't even remember when. When we remember, they were doing Nyungne.
紐涅是……在這裡，我們在每個薩嘎達瓦（Dawa Shiva）都會做像紐涅這樣的法會。這從很久以前就開始了，我們甚至不記得是何時。在我們的記憶中，他們就在做紐涅。
05:27 – 05:43 When we were small, there was a big, great Nyungne. At that time there was no big monastery; we had an old small monastery. Because there was less space in the old Gumba, people doing prostrations did so on the roof as well as in the outer place. Many people gathered during that time.
當我們小時候，這裡有盛大的紐涅法會。那時沒有大寺廟，只有一座舊的小寺廟。因為舊寺廟空間小，做大禮拜的人就在屋頂以及外面的地方做。那時聚集了很多人。
05:53 – 06:03 There were many people staying in Nyungne, and they did not get space in the Gumba, so they stayed on the roof as well as on the outer surface.
參加紐涅的人很多，寺廟裡沒有空間，所以他們待在屋頂和外面。
06:06 – 06:07 I only remember this thing.
我只記得這件事。
06:21 – 06:23 Nyungne stopped only 10 years ago.
紐涅直到 10 年前才停止。
06:28 – 06:33 After Papa Rimpoche got ill with diabetes, then he stopped Nyungne.
Papa 仁波切患糖尿病生病後，他就停止了紐涅。
06:38 – 06:42 The Gumba and us—we always had a great relationship; no problems in between for a long time.
寺廟和我們——我們一直關係很好；長久以來都沒有問題。
06:47 – 06:54 Papa Dupchu was always great. He was the greatest Lama compared to others.
Papa Dupchu 一直都很偉大。相比之下，他是最偉大的喇嘛。
07:11 – 07:23 We are a very small village and we have only three or four families in our Kyung. So when we heard that Lamas were coming and going to make a retreat center—a great project—we were very happy. This is the happiest moment we ever heard of.
我們是一個非常小的村莊，Kyung 只有三、四戶人家。所以當我們聽說喇嘛要來並建立一個閉關中心——一個偉大的計畫——我們非常高興。這是我們聽過最快樂的時刻。
07:33 – 07:42 When Papa Rimpoche expired, we thought that now we have no Lama, no people, and now we are going to be so sad and so poor. But when we heard this project, we were very happy.
當 Papa 仁波切圓寂時，我們想著現在沒有喇嘛，沒有人，我們會變得很悲傷和悲慘。但當我們聽說這個計畫時，我們非常高興。
07:46 – 07:54 And great masters will be coming every year, so we are very happy and we feel very lucky.
而且偉大的上師每年都會來，所以我們非常高興，覺得很幸運。
08:14 – 08:26 Our village has a very small population. When foreign students come and they make a place for them to stay, we are very happy and we feel welcome to them. Our village will be bigger... more people will gather here, and we feel very happy and welcome them.
我們村子人口很少。當外國學生來，並且為他們建造住宿的地方時，我們很高興，我們歡迎他們。我們的村子會變大……更多人會聚集在這裡，我們感到非常高興並歡迎他們。
08:29 – 08:37 We always feel bored, lonely that we have a very small population and fewer households, so if many retreat centers are built, we are very happy.
我們總是覺得人口少、戶數少很無聊、孤單，所以如果建造許多閉關中心，我們會非常高興。
08:38 – 08:42 If more Lamas stay, then that's very great.
如果有更多喇嘛留下來，那就太棒了。
File: #016.m4a Speaker:
Vikram Lama 00:13 – 00:23 My name is Vikram Lama and I have worked in cattle rearing for 20 to 25 years.
我叫 Vikram Lama，我牧牛已經 20 到 25 年了。
00:39 – 00:48 Rearing cattle and collecting grass for the winter is quite difficult.
飼養牛群和為冬天收集牧草是相當困難的。
00:58 – 01:08 Actually, I want to decrease the number of cows, but it's going more and more. How to decrease the quantity of cattle is not... [clear/easy].
其實我想減少牛的數量，但牛越來越多。如何減少牛群的數量並不容易……
01:16 – 01:21 Now I have 36 to 37 cows.
現在我有 36 到 37 頭牛。
01:22 – 01:25 In total, I have 36 to 37 cattle.
總共我有 36 到 37 頭牲畜。
01:31 – 01:37 Last winter... snow leopard... [killed] only 5 to 6 cattle.
去年冬天……雪豹……[只咬死了] 5 到 6 頭牛。
01:47 – 02:06 Every season we always have to work hard for them. In summer we have to take care of them and rear the cattle. In winter, we still have to collect grass to give to them and always need to work very hard.
每個季節我們都要為牠們辛苦工作。夏天我們要照顧和放牧牛群。冬天我們還要收集牧草餵牠們，總是需要非常努力地工作。
02:13 – 02:19 In winter we can't do the milking. And we need to give lots of grass in the winter.
冬天我們無法擠奶。而且冬天我們需要提供大量的牧草。
02:27 – 02:37 From the summer we have to start collecting grass, growing crops, and rearing the cows.
從夏天開始，我們就必須收集牧草、種植作物並飼養牛群。
02:41 – 02:46 And in winter we have to take care of them; it's very difficult.
而在冬天我們要照顧牠們，這非常困難。
02:52 – 02:56 Taking care of them is very difficult for us.
照顧牠們對我們來說很困難。
03:03 – 03:13 We have to take care of them. If they get ill, then we have to call a doctor and do treatment. If they are lost, we have to go search for them. Always difficult.
我們必須照顧牠們。如果牠們生病了，我們得叫醫生來治療。如果牠們走失了，我們得去尋找。總是很困難。
03:18 – 03:26 If they get ill, we have to call the doctor. And they get ill many times, so it's quite difficult.
如果牠們生病，我們要叫醫生。牠們經常生病，所以很困難。
03:28 – 03:33 And doctors are not there almost all the time. Only sometimes do we get a veterinary doctor for them.
而且醫生幾乎都不在。只有偶爾我們能找到獸醫給牠們看病。
03:38 – 03:44 And we also need to vaccinate the cattle twice a year. Every six months we have to give a vaccine.
我們還需要每年給牛接種兩次疫苗。每六個月就要打一次疫苗。
03:54 – 04:02 Every six months, sometimes a veterinarian comes here for vaccines, or sometimes we have to gather all the cattle in the house and then call the doctor.
每六個月，有時獸醫會來這裡打疫苗，或者有時我們要把所有牛趕進屋裡，然後叫醫生來。
04:14 – 04:21 Vaccine is given for Diphtheria and others I don't know.
疫苗是用於白喉和其他我不清楚的疾病。
04:28 – 04:36 Cows are used for milking and the oxen are used for plowing the field or sometimes to sell.
母牛用來產奶，公牛用來耕田，有時也用來出售。
04:47 – 04:57 So we have nowhere to sell these cows. Every year they give birth to a baby, so it's increasing every year.
我們無處出售這些母牛。每年牠們都會生小牛，所以數量逐年增加。
05:07 – 05:10 Every year it increases by 10 or 12.
每年增加 10 或 12 頭。
05:15 – 05:22 Maybe this year they got 10 babies. Next year they may have 12 babies.
也許今年牠們生了 10 頭小牛。明年可能會生 12 頭。
05:37 – 05:44 We have to call 3-4 people to collect dry leaves for the cattle to sleep on.
我們必須叫 3-4 個人來收集乾樹葉給牛睡覺用。
05:52 – 06:01 From butter, churpi, and milk we get a little money, but we suffer more than that.
從奶油、乾乳酪和牛奶中我們能賺一點錢，但我們受的苦比賺的還多。
06:06 – 06:12 We need to keep one herdsman; only then will we be a little happy, otherwise it's a very difficult time.
我們需要雇一個牧牛人；只有那樣我們會稍微快樂一點，否則那是很艱難的時光。
06:22 – 06:28 We also need to give food in the winter, so it's very difficult to satisfy giving [food to] all these cattle.
冬天我們還需要提供食物，要滿足所有這些牛的餵食非常困難。
06:37 – 06:45 Oxen are kept in other places and here only the cows sleep in the same place.
公牛養在其他地方，這裡只有母牛睡在同一個地方。
06:50 – 06:55 Oxen are kept in different places, babies are kept in different places, and cows were kept in different places.
公牛養在不同地方，小牛養在不同地方，母牛也養在不同地方。
File: #029.m4a Speaker:
Amar Chhetri 00:07 – 00:27 My name is Amar Chhetri and I am from Syangja, Gandaki district, Fedikola Gaupalika... Ward number 4. Right now, I have stayed here for 15-20 days. I came to Manang 41 years ago. Before, I worked in the police service. I retired 15 years ago. Right now, I'm doing hotel business in Ngawal village.
我叫 Amar Chhetri，來自 Gandaki 區 Syangja 的 Fedikola Gaupalika……第四區。目前我在這裡待了 15-20 天。我 41 年前來到 Manang。以前我在警界服務。我 15 年前退休了。現在，我在 Ngawal 村經營旅館生意。
00:46 – 00:58 I don't know anything about Grandfather Rimpoche because at that time I was not here. Regarding Papa Rimpoche, no need to hear stories; I feel many things. He was a great philosopher.
我對大仁波切一無所知，因為那時我不在這裡。關於 Papa 仁波切，不需要聽說，我有很深的感受。他是一位偉大的哲學家。
01:10 – 01:23 Villagers also considered him the best, and he also did his very best for the villagers. Everyone knew him from our village, from Kyung village, and from Humde village. Every person respected him. Anyone who does not respect him is like an animal.
村民們也認為他是最好的，他也為村民盡心盡力。我們村、Kyung 村以及 Humde 村的每個人都認識他。每個人都尊敬他。如果有誰不尊敬他，那就像是動物一樣。
01:36 – 01:52 People consider him a great Lama because he really was a great Lama. A very learned and knowledgeable Lama. When I was in the police, I met him many times. He blessed me. He was really a great man; he studied well and was a very experienced and knowledgeable person. He was the greatest Lama of all for me.
大家公認他是一位偉大的喇嘛，因為他確實是一位偉大的喇嘛，一位博學多聞的喇嘛。當我在警局時，我見過他很多次。他加持過我。他真是一個偉大的人；他學識淵博，經驗豐富且見多識廣。對我來說，他是最偉大的喇嘛。
02:02 – 02:08 For our Papa Rimpoche, we villagers considered him the very best, and we followed him from the deep of our hearts.
對於我們的 Papa 仁波切，我們村民認為他是最好的，我們從內心深處追隨他。
02:18 – 02:28 Now he has passed away and is not here. I don't consider we will find this type of Lama later in life. I don't think we will get this type of Lama later on.
現在他已過世，不在了。我不認為我們在往後的生活中還能找到這種類型的喇嘛。我不認為我們以後還會有這樣的喇嘛。
02:44 – 02:59 Regarding this new project and the arrival of many Lamas and foreign students... I consider it the best and very great. If foreign students come here and many Lamas come here... and start Buddhist philosophy here, then I consider it the best, and it is always good for our village too.
關於這個新計畫以及許多喇嘛和外國學生的到來……我認為這是最好且非常棒的。如果外國學生來這裡，許多喇嘛來這裡……並在這裡開始講授佛教哲學，那我認為這是最好的，這對我們的村莊也總是好事。
03:13 – 03:29 If more people come here, it is always helpful for every profession. Even in the business sector, it is good to have many people from different countries. This is a place where many of us are Buddhist. We follow Buddhism in a very strong way here in our village. It is very great to receive many Buddhist Lamas.
如果有更多人來這裡，對各行各業都有幫助。即使在商業領域，有來自不同國家的人也是好事。這裡是我們許多人信仰佛教的地方。我們村子裡，大家非常堅定地信仰佛教。能接待許多佛教喇嘛真是太好了。
File: #31.m4a Speaker:
Dolkar Gurung 00:13 – 00:23 My name is Dolkar Gurung and I am 77 years old. I was born here and have stayed here since birth.
我叫 Dolkar Gurung，今年 77 歲。我出生在這裡，從出生就一直住在這裡。
00:46 – 00:59 Grand Rimpoche, as well as my father, Father Rimpoche—all their pictures are in my home. I pray for them, and they look very good.
大仁波切以及我的「Papa 仁波切」——他們的照片都在我家裡。我向他們祈禱，他們看起來非常慈祥。
01:22 – 01:38 I have come to the Nyungne since I was very small, and I met both Grand Rimpoche as well as Papa Rimpoche. When I was small, I went to receive blessings from Grand Rimpoche; he was very funny and made little jokes with us.
我從小就來參加紐涅（Nyungne，閉關法會），我見過大仁波切和 Papa 仁波切。小時候我去接受大仁波切的加持；他非常風趣，常跟我們開小玩笑。
01:52 – 02:12 For a long time, I have respected him a lot, and he has done great things for us. When Grand Rimpoche first came from Nar, he stayed up on the hill at places named Kyorkang and Surkhang. They stayed up on the hill in the summertime, and all the villagers went there to receive blessings from him.
長久以來，我非常尊敬他，他也為我們做了很多偉大的事。當大仁波切最初從 Nar 村過來時，他住在山上叫 Kyorkang 和 Surkhang 的地方。夏天他們住在山上，所有村民都會去那裡接受他的加持。
02:16 – 02:22 During that time, Papa Rimpoche was very small, like you guys.
那時候，Papa 仁波切還很小，就像你們一樣。
02:37 – 02:56 After that summer, he came to Kyung to stay. Since then, he stayed in Kyung, and we always went there to receive blessings from him. While he stayed in Kyung, people from Khangsar came here and requested Grand Rimpoche to go to their village in Khangsar to stay.
那個夏天之後，他來到 Kyung（村莊名）居住。從那時起，他就一直住在 Kyung，我們總是去那裡接受他的加持。當他住在 Kyung 的時候，Khangsar 的人來到這裡，請求大仁波切去他們 Khangsar 的村子居住。
03:13 – 03:31 But we, the people from Ngawal, thought that since he was already staying in our place, he needed to stay here. So, we requested him to stay in our own place and not go to Khangsar. I also had the experience of going with the villagers to request Lama Grand Rimpoche to stay in Kyung and not go to Khangsar.
但我們 Ngawal 的人認為，既然他已經住在我們這裡，他就應該留下來。所以，我們請求他留在我們這裡，不要去 Khangsar。我也有過和村民一起去請求大仁波切留在 Kyung 而不要去 Khangsar 的經歷。
03:49 – 04:02 For a long time, every year, I have gone to Kyung to stay for Nyungne. Grand Rimpoche and his family—Grand Rimpoche did the Nyungne in Kyung every year, and I was always there to attend the Nyungne and stay with them.
很長一段時間以來，每年我都去 Kyung 參加紐涅。大仁波切和他的家人——大仁波切每年都在 Kyung 舉辦紐涅，我總是去參加並與他們待在一起。
04:22 – 04:47 One time, during the Saka Dawa period, there were not many people staying for Nyungne. Only four of us were staying there... Nyungne is for 16 days, like 8 pairs. During that time, one of our friends went away after two pairs. Then, only the Lama, others, and I—only three of us—stayed for the Nyungne. I stayed for 8 pairs of Nyungne.
有一次，在薩嘎達瓦（Saka Dawa）期間，參加紐涅的人不多。只有我們四個人留在那裡……紐涅持續 16 天，也就是 8 回（兩日為一回）。那期間，我們的一個朋友在兩回之後離開了。然後只剩下喇嘛、其他人和我——只有我們三個人——留下來完成紐涅。我待滿了 8 回紐涅。
04:56 – 05:07 Every year I attended Nyungne; sometimes for 8 pairs, and sometimes for 2 or 3 pairs. I stayed for Nyungne every year.
我每年都參加紐涅；有時是 8 回，有時是 2 或 3 回。我每年都參加。
05:22 – 05:37 Papa was a great Lama, a great Master for all villagers and for us all. Still, I am praying that he will be reborn soon, and that before I die, I pray I will get an opportunity to meet him once.
Papa 是一位偉大的喇嘛，對所有村民和我們大家來說都是偉大的上師。我仍然祈禱他能早日轉世，並祈禱在我死前能有機會見他一面。
05:42 – 05:49 Every time when I am doing Mani [prayers], I pray that I will get to see him once after he is reborn.
每次我在念誦六字大明咒時，我都祈禱能在他轉世後見他一面。
06:05 – 06:13 If Lamas come and make a new retreat center, it is great for me. It is always good.
如果有喇嘛來建立新的閉關中心，對我來說是極好的。這總是好事。
06:22 – 06:46 Kyung is a very lucky place. There is a Lama every time, and still, there are two Lamas, because it is never empty. Though our village here on top has a big village and two Gumbas, there is no Lama. Right now, I consider Kyung a very lucky village because they have a retreat center; they always have a Lama, and they have great masters.
Kyung 是一個非常幸運的地方。那裡隨時都有喇嘛，現在還有兩位喇嘛，因為那裡從不空缺。雖然我們上面的村子很大，有兩座寺廟，但卻沒有喇嘛。現在我認為 Kyung 是一個非常幸運的村莊，因為他們有閉關中心，總是有喇嘛，而且有偉大的上師。
File: #036.m4a Speaker:
Karma Thundup 00:10 – 00:23 My name is Karma Thundup. I am 72 years old and I came from Nar village 50 years ago.
我叫 Karma Thundup，今年 72 歲，我 50 年前來自 Nar 村。
00:39 – 00:53 In Nar village, Grand Rimpoche first came from Tibet and stayed in Nar Phu... we were always together. We stayed in Kunlung in Nar Phu.
在 Nar 村，大仁波切最初從西藏過來，待在 Nar Phu……我們總是在一起。我們住在 Nar Phu 的 Kunlung。
01:05 – 01:33 Above Tashilagang, there is one place named Tsechu where he stayed for a little longer. They stayed there for almost two years. After that, they came to a place called Che, and they stayed there for almost six months. After that, he came to Tashilagang... They stayed in Tashilagang for 5-6 years in Phu village. The Gumba was named Tashilagang, where Grand Rimpoche and his family stayed for 5-6 years and did Mane Puja.
在 Tashilagang 上方，有一個叫 Tsechu 的地方，他在那裡待得比較久。他們在那裡待了將近兩年。之後，他們來到一個叫 Che 的地方，待了將近六個月。然後他來到 Tashilagang……在 Phu 村的 Tashilagang 待了 5-6 年。那座寺廟叫 Tashilagang，大仁波切和他的家人在那裡住了 5-6 年，並舉辦嘛尼（六字大明咒）法會。
01:53 – 02:18 We were not only meeting and taking blessings from the Rimpoche; we stayed together like a family in Phu village. Once, when I went to meet the Rimpoche, a big dog came and took my cap. The dog ran away and went inside the house... later, the wife of the Rimpoche came with the cap, and the Rimpoche patted my cheek and was good to me.
我們不僅僅是見面和接受仁波切的加持；在 Phu 村，我們像家人一樣住在一起。有一次，我去見仁波切，一隻大狗跑來搶走了我的帽子。狗跑進了屋子……後來，仁波切的妻子拿著帽子出來，仁波切輕拍我的臉頰，對我很好。
02:29 – 02:44 Papa Rimpoche and his family... his children were all small like us, and we used to play together during that time. Many years ago, the Rimpoche used to play with the children. He loved us a lot.
Papa 仁波切和他的家人……他的孩子那時都像我們一樣小，我們經常一起玩。許多年前，仁波切經常和孩子們一起玩。他非常愛我們。
02:59 – 03:13 Whenever we went to Rimpoche's place, Rimpoche always called us for tea... "come and have tea"... and the wife of the Rimpoche always came to us and put some churpi or chocolate in our pockets and sent us off.
每當我們去仁波切的地方，仁波切總是叫我們喝茶……「來喝茶」……仁波切的妻子總是過來，在我們口袋裡塞些乾乳酪或巧克力，然後送我們離開。
03:32 – 03:57 After Tashilagang, he came down to Pangre where he stayed for one year. Between Chako and Pang, he stayed for one year. After that, he came to Nar, where he did not stay much longer. Then he came to Manang, where he stayed up on top nearby Larkepass, at places like Kyorkang and Hlekasamba.
離開 Tashilagang 後，他下到 Pangre 待了一年。在 Chako 和 Pang 之間，他待了一年。之後他來到 Nar，但沒待太久。然後他來到 Manang，住在 Larkepass 附近的山頂上，像是 Kyorkang 和 Hlekasamba 這些地方。
04:15 – 04:39 First, the Rimpoche came from Nar to the top of the hill. Then people considered him... some Ngawal people invited him to the Bodzoje [Gumba], and Pisang people invited him to Pisang. Finally, some people from Kyung said they were going to give him a small piece of land and build a small Gumba for him. So, he went to Kyung village.
起初，仁波切從 Nar 來到山頂。然後人們尊崇他……一些 Ngawal 人邀請他去 Bodzoje [寺廟]，Pisang 人邀請他去 Pisang。最後，Kyung 的一些人說要給他一小塊地，並為他建一座小寺廟。所以，他去了 Kyung 村。
04:54 – 05:13 After that, Grand Rimpoche stayed in Kyung until his Parinirvana. But during his Parinirvana, I was not here. Before his Parinirvana, I came to Kyung to receive blessings from Rimpoche once. After that, I didn't get the opportunity to meet him, and I didn't see his passing.
之後，大仁波切一直住在 Kyung 直到圓寂。但他圓寂時，我不在這裡。在他圓寂前，我曾來 Kyung 接受過一次仁波切的加持。那之後，我就沒機會再見到他，也沒見到他離世。
05:27 – 05:38 When Rimpoche was in Kyung... we were not in Ngawal; actually, we were in Phu. So we, all the villagers, came from Phu to Kyung to receive blessings from Rimpoche.
當仁波切在 Kyung 時……我們不在 Ngawal；其實我們在 Phu。所以我們所有村民從 Phu 來到 Kyung 接受仁波切的加持。
05:49 – 06:01 Rimpoche looked great; he had a big body and long hair tied on his head. Since he came from Tibet, he came with long hair tied on his head.
仁波切看起來很棒；他身材高大，頭上綁著長髮。自從他從西藏來，就一直留著綁在頭上的長髮。
06:20 – 06:33 During that time, people from Nar Phu, as well as from Tibet, offered different goats and sheep to him as an offering.
那段時間，來自 Nar Phu 以及西藏的人們供養他各種山羊和綿羊。
06:44 – 07:11 Rimpoche got a lot of goats... all were tsethar [lives liberated], you know. All were tsethar, and now they are gone. Rimpoche's goats were finished only because of thieves, leopards, and foxes. Because he didn't sell any; all were tsethar. All male goats were tsethar and went everywhere they liked. Sometimes they came to our village, and people put them inside their houses to make fertilizer from Rimpoche's goats.
仁波切有很多山羊……所有的都是「Tsethar」（放生羊），你知道的。全是放生羊，現在都沒了。仁波切的山羊之所以沒了，是因為小偷、豹和狐狸。因為他不賣任何羊，全部都是放生的。所有公山羊都是放生的，牠們想去哪就去哪。有時牠們來到我們村子，人們把牠們關進屋裡，收集仁波切山羊的糞便做肥料。
07:17 – 07:23 And the goats were very big... These goats all came from Tibet, so they had very big bodies.
那些山羊非常大……這些山羊都是從西藏來的，所以體型很大。
07:35 – 07:54 In Nar Phu, Papa Rimpoche was young like us; we were friends, and sometimes we slept and stayed together. He knew the Nar Phu language also because he stayed with us. Whenever I met Papa Rimpoche, we talked in the Narpa language.
在 Nar Phu，Papa 仁波切像我們一樣年輕；我們是朋友，有時我們一起睡覺、一起生活。因為和我們住在一起，他也懂 Nar Phu 的語言。每當我見到 Papa 仁波切，我們都用 Narpa 語交談。
08:04 – 08:14 Once, Papa Rimpoche told me that the Manangi language is very different and difficult, and he didn't understand it; better we talk in the Phu language.
有一次，Papa 仁波切告訴我，Manangi 語非常不同且困難，他聽不懂；我們最好用 Phu 語交談。
08:29 – 08:44 We had a great relationship with him. Papa Rimpoche's brother, Lama Sonam Rimpoche... who stayed in Nar... also did very great things. He performed treatment once when a yak bit my neck; I was treated by Papa's brother, Lama Sonam Rimpoche. In Nar Phu, he did every treatment.
我們與他的關係非常好。Papa 仁波切的兄弟，Lama Sonam Rimpoche……住在 Nar 的那位……也做了很多偉大的事。有一次犛牛咬了我的脖子，是 Papa 的兄弟 Lama Sonam Rimpoche 幫我治療的。在 Nar Phu，他負責所有的治療。
09:02 – 09:18 Papa's brother, Lama Sonam Rimpoche, did many things like Puja, meditation... medicine, and also carpentry... he did every work he knew. I work here as a little carpenter all because the Rimpoche taught me.
Papa 的兄弟 Lama Sonam Rimpoche 會做很多事，比如法會、禪修……醫藥，還有木工……他會做他知道的所有工作。我在這裡做小木匠，全是因為仁波切教我的。
09:37 – 09:59 When Papa Rimpoche got old, he had a big and heavy body. Whenever he came, he came with a horse, and two young men went with him for the horse because of his big, heavy body. But he always came to Ngawal wherever there was a Puja and whenever people called him.
當 Papa 仁波切變老後，他的身體變得高大且沉重。每當他來時，他都騎馬，並有兩位年輕人陪同照顧馬匹，因為他身體沉重。但他總是來到 Ngawal，無論哪裡有法會，無論人們何時召喚他。
10:17 – 10:30 I left my village, Nar Phu, 50 years ago. I miss my village, and sometimes I remember many things regarding our village and also about our Grand Rimpoche and all the other Rimpoches.
我在 50 年前離開了我的家鄉 Nar Phu。我想念我的家鄉，有時我會想起很多關於我們村子、關於大仁波切以及所有其他仁波切的事情。
10:52 – 11:15 Regarding the future plan to make a retreat center and invite Lamas to stay here for retreat, we are very happy about it because these days we have a problem of not having Lamas in all areas. If there is a Lama, it helps with problems like if people die in the family; the only thing we need is a Lama. So, if a Lama stays in Kyung, we are very lucky.
關於建立閉關中心並邀請喇嘛來這裡閉關的未來計畫，我們非常高興，因為現在我們面臨各地區都沒有喇嘛的問題。如果有喇嘛，就能解決像是家裡有人過世這類問題；我們唯一需要的就是喇嘛。所以，如果喇嘛住在 Kyung，我們就非常幸運。
11:25 – 11:42 Here in our village up top, there are two monasteries; there is one big monastery, but we have no Lama at all. We talked with the great Lama Rimpoche in Kathmandu to send us a Lama who can do the Phowa in the winter when people die... they said yes, but no one is coming because it is all empty.
在我們上面的村子裡，有兩座寺廟；有一座大寺廟，但完全沒有喇嘛。我們跟加德滿都的大仁波切談過，請他派一位能在冬天有人過世時做頗瓦法（遷識法）的喇嘛……他們說好，但因為這裡都是空的，所以沒人來。